Best value "Entry Level" gaming PC.

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

You mean high power high performance SOC and entry level low power Desktop chip. (Relative to other SOC's and desktop chips).

That was good for a laugh.

I've never heard of anyone referring to a System on a Chip as a high powered anything in my life.

 

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

The problem with your analogy is that a chip being an SOC or not does not add or subtract ultility in a desktop environment.

All that matters is price, performance and noise. (Power is not much of a factor unless it is extremely high and requires extraordinary cooling)

Yes, it does. Try running a modern game or other intense app (4K Video Editing) on one of these low power chips. You'll be lucky to get 25% of the performance of a similarly priced 1150 or FM2.... That is of course if you can even get the software to run on the Atom/Sempron.

The analogy fits. If you have a heavy workload, buy the pickup truck (Haswell/Kaveri). If you don't, buy the Corolla (Bay Trail/Kabini). Both vehicles are capable of transporting you to the shopping mall... But beyond that, it gets dicey for the Corolla.

 

[cbn]

One problem that AMD has historically had is a relative lack of affordable Mini-ITX for FM2/FM2+.

Recently there has been a rebate which helps the Asrock A78 mini-ITX somewhat, but it has been the lack of A55/A58 that has kept FM2/FM2+ Mini-ITX from being affordable enough to go head to head with Intel for entry level Mini-ITX iGPU gamer.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the lack of options then forces the inevitable AM1 comparison.

Now with Intel, there are more affordable options to choose from in the low end Mini-ITX category (including the 1037U, G1610 or G1620, or even the G1820) thus there is no need to push Bay Trail-D into the comparison. AMD doesn't have those same array of choices. Now the availability of the A4-7300 helps the FM2/FM2+ Mini-ITX situation to some degree but it has yet to be available from Amazon at the $40 price they have listed. And even if A4-7300 were availalble for $40 there is that FM2/FM2+ Mini-ITX motherboard situation to deal with.

 

[cbn]

The analogy fits. If you have a heavy workload, buy the pickup truck (Haswell/Kaveri). If you don't, buy the Corolla (Bay Trail/Kabini). Both vehicles are capable of transporting you to the shopping mall... But beyond that, it gets dicey for the Corolla.

If you need a truck, then buy a truck.

But what if a person can't afford AMD's truck? And then the choices boil down either Intel's truck vs. AMD's Corrolla?

 

[Enigmoid]

That was good for a laugh.

I've never heard of anyone referring to a System on a Chip as a high powered anything in my life.

Obviously haven't been looking.

https://www.google.ca/webhp?hl=en&tab=ww&gws_rd=ssl#hl=en&q=high+performance+SOC

Qualcomm refers to their products (SOC) as high-powered. Same with Apple's A8, TK1, Exynos CPUs. Sure they are mobile but within their class range they are 'high-powered'. The 5350 in a tablet would absolutely be called a high performance high power chip. You could call it a low performance desktop chip too.

Its all in context. For an SOC, yes the 5350 is high performance high power, especially compared to something like Baytrail. As SOC's go, the 5350 is very close to the top of the pack.

The other misnomer is that the g3258 is nothing close to a 'high performance' desktop CPU in the context of modern desktop CPUs.

 

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

They are directly competing in the marketplace because OEMs stuff atom/kabini into desktops and full size laptops. Granted they are a bit more of a fit for craptops, but desktops with them are just a rip-off.

The OEM's are simply taking advantage of the consumers who don't understand what desktops they are buying. An educated consumer will opt for the Haswell/Kaveri/etc.

For a basic office / web surfer, Bay Trail and Kabini are solid.

 

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

Obviously haven't been looking.

The other misnomer is that the g3258 is nothing close to a 'high performance' desktop CPU in the context of modern desktop CPUs.

I have been. But now you've changed the subject to tablets and smartphones. SOC's remain at the bottom of the heap for desktop performance.

Not sure about the G3258, though. With 12 and 16 thread CPU's now hitting the mainstream -- IMO a 2 thread CPU is looking pretty depressing in 2014.

 

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

If you need a truck, then buy a truck.

But what if a person can't afford AMD's truck? And then the choices boil down either Intel's truck vs. AMD's Corrolla?

Intel's 1150 truck (G1820) and AMD's FM2 Truck (A4) are about the same price in Micro ATX.

 

[Enigmoid]

I have been. But now you've changed the subject to tablets and smartphones. SOC's remain at the bottom of the heap for desktop performance.

Not sure about the G3258, though. With 12 and 16 thread CPU's now hitting the mainstream -- IMO a 2 thread CPU is looking pretty depressing in 2014.

My point is that AtenRa's statement was a mislabel. The 5350 is low-powered yes but for an SOC its one of the most powerful. Now I'm not sure if consumers even know or care about SOC's but while it is a weak entry level desktop CPU it is actually a very powerful SOC (mostly an academic argument).

You agree with me that the label on a G3258 of 'powerful desktop CPU' is incorrect.

I'm trying to say that the two infringe on each other. They are not wholly separate but there is some mixing going on between high end AM1 chips and low end LGA 1150 chips. You can't throw those two descriptions in and say they don't compete.

 

[cbn]

Intel's 1150 truck (G1820) and AMD's FM2 Truck (A4) are about the same price in Micro ATX.

Read post #253 and tell me what you would use for Mini-ITX.

 

[AtenRa]

They are directly competing in the marketplace because OEMs stuff atom/kabini into desktops and full size laptops. Granted they are a bit more of a fit for craptops, but desktops with them are just a rip-off.

Those two are directly competing,

Intel Pentium G3258 = $69,99

AMD A6-6400K = $64,99

Just because you have a low power SoC at $50-60 price point doesnt mean it directly competes against Haswell Celerons/Pentiums.

Those two are directly competing though,

Intel Celeron J1900 = $69,99

AMD Athlon 5150 = $49,99 + MSI AM1I = $33,99 Total = $83,98

 

[Abwx]

Prices are not decided only by manufacturers, the retail chain will inflate the prices according to selling points even if the intrinsical higher cost is negligible at the basis.

A DC powered J1900 board hence cost the same as an Athlon 5350 + DC powered MB, take an ATX powered combo and the BT 4C combos can be find at 10€ less for the most basic MBs , rest is priced at the same level or even higher than the AM1 + 5350; overall there seems to be a slight premium for the AM1 wich is often justified either by the perfs , the GPU or more simply the I/O capabilities, and this premium is added by the retail stores.

On the technical side of things AMD did set the plateform such that it can work in inner case temps up to 45°C according to their AM1 thermal design guide, hence the choice to add a fan.

 

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

Read post #253 and tell me what you would use for Mini-ITX.

I just built an 1150 Mini-ITX gaming machine with a Pentium G3258/Nvidia 650 GTX inside a Coolermaster 110 Case. That should make it pretty clear.

My AM1 build is strictly a NAS. AM1 has its purpose, but a dedicated game machine really isn't its mission in life.

 

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

Those two are directly competing,

Intel Pentium G3258 = $69,99

AMD A6-6400K = $64,99

Just because you have a low power SoC at $50-60 price point doesnt mean it directly competes against Haswell Celerons/Pentiums.

Exactly -- and the above decision really is determined if you are planning to run a dedicated video card. If you are not going to buy one, then the A6 all the way. If you are going to use a video card, the G3258 is the best option.

 

[Shivansps]

Those two are directly competing,

Intel Pentium G3258 = $69,99

AMD A6-6400K = $64,99

Just because you have a low power SoC at $50-60 price point doesnt mean it directly competes against Haswell Celerons/Pentiums.

Those two are directly competing though,

Intel Celeron J1900 = $69,99

AMD Athlon 5150 = $49,99 + MSI AM1I = $33,99 Total = $83,98

If im making a desktop pc why on earth a G1610+H61 at @u$s87(ITX) or a u$s87(mATX) cant be a competitor to the AM1 and BTs? thats just plain BS.

Im sorry but AM1 Athlons and Semprons reemplaced the Sempron and Athlons AM3, and they did compared it to a G1610 and thats by AMD own slides.

If you dont like it thats your problem, but im tired of this crap, if i can buy it for the same price range its a competitor, with its pro and cons.

 

[Abwx]

Im sorry but AM1 Athlons and Semprons reemplaced the Sempron and Athlons AM3, and they did compared it to a G1610 and thats by AMD own slides.

G1610 was replaced by G1820 and its current competitors are the A4 6300/6320 wich are at exactly the same price +-1$, notice that the Athlon 5350 is more expensive that those three, that is because it s the best product of its segment.

Obviously Baytrail doesnt stand the comparison with the AM1, hence some people try to drag the comparison with another segment that is LGA1150 while this latter is an FM2/FM2+ competitor.

 

[AtenRa]

If im making a desktop pc why on earth a G1610+H61 at @u$s87(ITX) or a u$s87(mATX) cant be a competitor to the AM1 and BTs? thats just plain BS.

Im sorry but AM1 Athlons and Semprons reemplaced the Sempron and Athlons AM3, and they did compared it to a G1610 and thats by AMD own slides.

If you dont like it thats your problem, but im tired of this crap, if i can buy it for the same price range its a competitor, with its pro and cons.

Why dont you compare those Socket 1150/1155 Celerons to AMD Ritchland ???

A4-6300 = $47,99

GIGABYTE GA-F2A55M-S1 = $34,69 AR

Total = $82,68 for mATX

Or unlocked A4-5400K = $59,99

If you only care about price/performance then Ritchland will be the ones you should compare against Haswell Celerons, not AM1 Athlons.

ps: AM1 didnt replaced AM3 Athlons, AM1 replaced Bobcat BGA.

 

[Abwx]

Why dont you compare those Socket 1150/1155 Celerons to AMD Ritchland ???

A4-6300 = $47,99
GIGABYTE GA-F2A55M-S1 = $34,69 AR

Total = $82,68 for mATX
Or unlocked A4-5400K = $59,99

If you only care about price/performance then Ritchland will be the ones you should compare against Haswell Celerons, not AM1 Athlons.

I noticed that here the 6300/6320 are 1-3€ cheaper than the 40€ G1820, thanks to their high frequency they should do quite well in applications while in games it s surely a no contest.

Besides, a very nice review comparing a few AMD low cost APUs including the AM1 5350/3850 as well as five Trinity/Richland 2C, ther s a G1620 also, too bad they didnt pay attention to their PSU but there s still interesting numbers to be extracted, they got their Athlon 5350 working at 2.56 with only 2% higher voltage wich resulted to a 3W delta under Prime 95.

http://www.au-ja.de/review-amd-athl...000-a4-5300-a6-5400k-a4-6300-a6-6400k-1.phtml

 

[cbn]

If you only care about price/performance then Ritchland will be the ones you should compare against Haswell Celerons, not AM1 Athlons.

For Micro ATX, yes.

For Mini-ITX, no (see post #253).

 

[cbn]

The only reason to go G1610 or G1620 over G1820 (which has a 67% larger iGPU) is Mini-ITX motherboard cost. (re: ECS has this $35.99 free shipping Mini-ITX LGA 1155 at Newegg--> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813135341)

With that mentioned, for only $78.98 free shipping with G1620---> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B4BJY7E/...xtension-kb-20 the LGA 1155 Mini-ITX combo is priced only a few dollars above the $72.97 free shipping Asrock J1900 Mini-ITX ---> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00J2CCCJE/?tag=extension-kb-20

Priced below the Asrock J1900, are these 1037Us:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...42&ignorebbr=1 ($62.99 with $3.99 shipping)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GWNSIK8/...xtension-kb-20 ($66.99 free shipping)

 

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

The only reason to go G1610 or G1620 over G1820 (which has a 67% larger iGPU) is Mini-ITX motherboard cost. (re: ECS has this $35.99 free shipping Mini-ITX LGA 1155 at Newegg--> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813135341)

Priced below the Asrock J1900, are these 1037Us:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...42&ignorebbr=1 ($62.99 with $3.99 shipping)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GWNSIK8/...xtension-kb-20 ($66.99 free shipping)

The J1900 and 1037U are all lousy for playing games -- better to spend the extra money on 1155/1150/FM2. The original post was about building a gaming PC.

 

[Shivansps]

Obviously Baytrail doesnt stand the comparison with the AM1, hence some people try to drag the comparison with another segment that is LGA1150 while this latter is an FM2/FM2+ competitor.

BT makes no sence in desktop, at all, thats why everyone just avoids it, the 5350 is just a LITTLE better and still makes no sence at all because of its price point compared to 1150 and FM2 offers on matx.

Remember we are talking about desktop here.

 

[cbn]

Okay, I think at this point we can all agree AMD needs improvement in value for Mini-ITX, but for Micro-ATX AMD FM2/FM2+ is lining up just fine with Micro-ATX Intel LGA 1150.

So for AMD Mini-ITX I will be looking out for the following:

1. Lowering FM2/FM2+ Mini-ITX board prices. Maybe a A55/A58 value Mini-ITX board would be a good idea? This especially if the retailer could price it low enough. Maybe even use it as a board for FM2/FM2+ Mini-ITX value bundles?

2. Lowering of AM1 Mini-ITX board prices. I am especially looking forward to see what the ECS KAM1-I (V1.0) ends up costing--> http://www.ecs.com.tw/ECSWebSite/Pr...oryID=1&DetailName=Feature&MenuID=192&LanID=0

3. Prices of Athlon x4 530 (2.0 GHz) and Athlon x4 550 (2.2 GHz). Will these be priced low enough in conjunction with a lowered AM1 Mini-ITX board cost that we might even be able to fit in a decent entry level video card into the budget? I am very skeptical but I figure it is still worth posing the question anyway.

 

[Shivansps]

What AMD needs is to lower AM1 APU costs they costs way too much a 5350 cost the same as a Haswell Pentium, unacceptable.

 

[cbn]

What AMD needs is to lower AM1 APU costs they costs way too much a 5350 cost the same as a Haswell Pentium, unacceptable.

For the money AMD is charging for Athlon 5350, I would have expected the chip to be fanless as the niche feature to help it distinguish itself from other processors.

With that mentioned, Kabini does come in a fanless configuration for the A4-5000 (1.5 GHz quad core with 500 Mhz iGPU), but notice how large the heatsink is:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813138412

I'd assume for 2.05 GHz quad and 600 Mhz iGPU, the heatsink would have been too big if passive.