AMD Ryzen Gen 2 Set For Q2 2018

[Topweasel]

Aside from a HTPC and the really small form factors like the NUC, most of us probably rather have a proper CPU and dGPU.

Okay but when someone is getting a 65w 4 core CPU for their system do they always want to install a 150-200w handmedown? Also HTPC and other NUC like SSFs and USFF's are exactly what I am talking about.

Also if I am building a system for my mom for example. I would have three choices. A 4c I3 without HT, a Ryzen R3 without HT and I have to buy an addon card (IE another part that can die), or an AMD APU 4c8t with graphics. It probably won't clock nearly as well but unlike the other weird guy he that all he can talk about is clock ramp up, to me thread assignment availability has a larger impact on overall system responsiveness. Sure people could make a lot of good reasons to go i3, but considering the market outright performance isn't the only thing to measure.

 

[moinmoin]

Aside from a few use cases, I really think that AIOs are a bad idea.

It's not that I disagree, it's that we don't represent the majority of the market with that.

A 4c I3 without HT, a Ryzen R3 without HT and I have to buy an addon card (IE another part that can die), or an AMD APU 4c8t with graphics.

What parameter do you base your selection on? It can't be price. The 4c8t APU won't be the same price as an R3. The APUs will be more expensive than equivalent CPUs.

 

[whm1974]

Okay but when someone is getting a 65w 4 core CPU for their system do they always want to install a 150-200w handmedown? Also HTPC and other NUC like SSFs and USFF's are exactly what I am talking about.

Also if I am building a system for my mom for example. I would have three choices. A 4c I3 without HT, a Ryzen R3 without HT and I have to buy an addon card (IE another part that can die), or an AMD APU 4c8t with graphics. It probably won't clock nearly as well but unlike the other weird guy he that all he can talk about is clock ramp up, to me thread assignment availability has a larger impact on overall system responsiveness. Sure people could make a lot of good reasons to go i3, but considering the market outright performance isn't the only thing to measure.

I'm sure for your mother a 4c8t APU will be fine. In my case I rather have more cores and a dGPU.

 

[Topweasel]

I'm sure for your mother a 4c8t APU will be fine. In my case I rather have more cores and a dGPU.

That's the problem when people generally go "why would anyone choose that". When the real response should be "I have no use case for it".

 

[Topweasel]

It's not that I disagree, it's that we don't represent the majority of the market with that.


What parameter do you base your selection on? It can't be price. The 4c8t APU won't be the same price as an R3. The APUs will be more expensive than equivalent CPUs.

So you don't think AMD will offer a 4c APU in the $100-120 price point? If so I would disagree.

 

[amd6502]

So you don't think AMD will offer a 4c APU in the $100-120 price point? If so I would disagree.

Maybe on the lower range, with disabled SMT. Guessing:

512 SPs, 4c/4t@3.2/3.6(3.7xfr) at $110.

And 384 SPs 3c/6t at similar speeds at $120

On the mid and upper side 640+ SPs 4c/8t at similar frequencies and elite frequencies for $170, $200+.

 

[Topweasel]

Maybe on the lower range, with disabled SMT. Guessing:

512 SPs, 4c/4t@3.2/3.6(3.7xfr) at $110.

And 384 SPs 3c/6t at similar speeds at $120

On the mid and upper side 640+ SPs 4c/8t at similar frequencies and elite frequencies for $170, $200+.

Okay I would still get the former ahead of a 8100.

 

[moinmoin]

So you don't think AMD will offer a 4c APU in the $100-120 price point? If so I would disagree.

AMD won't offer an APU at the price of a comparable performing CPU, that should be common sense. They will offer a 4c APU at the $100-120 price point once the 4c Ryzen are below that price point. An included iGPU is an added value that needs to pay, not a free for all bonus or a reason to drop the price.

 

[jpiniero]

I've kind of assumed that the quad core Summit Ridge parts will go away once Raven Ridge desktop arrives. AMD seems very intent to not go below the $100 price point and there really isn't room for both of them.

 

[Topweasel]

I've kind of assumed that the quad core Summit Ridge parts will go away once Raven Ridge desktop arrives. AMD seems very intent to not go below the $100 price point and there really isn't room for both of them.

Yeah I personally always thought that the R3 line was more of a place-holder for RR. I mean it's a decent dumping grounds for some really bad dies. But realistically RR on the desktop can't go above the $200 mark and obviously with the die size they probably don't want to go under $100. But they need this chip to make it anywhere in mobile. So yeah personally I think we might see some good value in $120-140ish RR chip on the desktop.

 

[epsilon84]

Is there really much of a market for APUs that, quite frankly, are severely underpowered as a gaming solution?

I mean its still a hell of a lot better than Intel's IGP and I'm sure it will run low spec eSports titles well, I'm just not sure there is a big market out there that requires graphics performance greater than that of an iGPU but less than that of a dGPU.

Seems like quite a niche to me.

 

[Topweasel]

Is there really much of a market for APUs that, quite frankly, are severely underpowered as a gaming solution?

I mean its still a hell of a lot better than Intel's IGP and I'm sure it will run low spec eSports titles well, I'm just not sure there is a big market out there that requires graphics performance greater than that of an iGPU but less than that of a dGPU.

Seems like quite a niche to me.

I would think it would be the other way around. The market on dGPU's is as large as it is because of margins and not because of numbers. A majority of desktops ship without a dGPU. I understand that in the DYI market it probably isn't a big ticket item but that is the problem about talking about technology on a forum like this, people as enthusiasts rarely can see outside that angle. It's like going into a car forum, less than 10% own a Toyota. They will call a Toyota a boring car driven by people who don't care about driving. But then you look at the numbers and Toyota sales are something like a 3rd of all cars sold.

 

[whm1974]

Is there really much of a market for APUs that, quite frankly, are severely underpowered as a gaming solution?

I mean its still a hell of a lot better than Intel's IGP and I'm sure it will run low spec eSports titles well, I'm just not sure there is a big market out there that requires graphics performance greater than that of an iGPU but less than that of a dGPU.

Seems like quite a niche to me.

I'm not sure the E-Sports titles and lower spec games could be considered to be niche as plenty of gamers play them. On top of this, lot's of people can't afford what we would consider to be proper gaming rigs. So they would have to make do.

 

[epsilon84]

I'm not sure the E-Sports titles and lower spec games could be considered to be niche as plenty of gamers play them. On top of this, lot's of people can't afford what we would consider to be proper gaming rigs. So they would have to make do.

I guess it all comes down to the pricing of the APUs as to whether they are worthwhile compared to just spending a bit more on a low end (but still more powerful) dGPU like a GT 1030.

 

[whm1974]

I guess it all comes down to the pricing of the APUs as to whether they are worthwhile compared to just spending a bit more on a low end (but still more powerful) dGPU like a GT 1030.

My guess is that the Ryzen R3 lineup will be replaced by RR, while Ryzen v2 will be the 6 and 8 core chips.

 

[epsilon84]

My guess is that the Ryzen R3 lineup will be replaced by RR, while Ryzen v2 will be the 6 and 8 core chips.

That makes sense as long as pricing will be similar to existing Ryzen 3 CPUs, otherwise this would put AMD at a pricing disadvantage compared to the i3 8100.

 

[whm1974]

While I'm not sure if I'll go with Intel or AMD for my next system when I get ready to build, I am rooting for AMD. It really depends on how well Linux is supported.

 

[LightningZ71]

You are forgetting that the R3 is essentially free. It is likely a heavily defective die that would be discarded if not offered. By keeping it in the market for sub $100 prices, it puts a ceiling on what Intel can offer the Celeron, Pentium and I3 for effectively, save for much higher clocked parts. Where AMD is missing out on is the market that is served by the iGPU in those lower spec chips. This is where RR can offer a value proposition against equivalent Intel parts. They can sell at the same price and offer more passable video perform in games than Intel. They can recover parts at lower prices to play on the celeron and pentium markets. They also have BR to offer in the bargain basement tier going forward.

Those low end systems represent huge volumes across the world. Those volumes give economies of scale for higher end parts. The APUs also give AMD more market saturation to compell game manufacturer's to continue to target AMD graphics cards for optimizations, which are obviously much needed at the higher end.

AMD and Apple's competitors in the laptop and AIO market would be foolish to pass up building systems based on the AMD APUs to compete with the lower end MacBook and iMacs. For competitive prices, you can advertise improved graphics performance.

As for desktop RR products, there is less impetus there. AMD doesn't have the business market penetration needed to really command such a product. Yes, Dell and HP could easily make compelling products with them, but we all know about how corporate thinks, wanting compatibility and reliability out of the box above all else.

 

[jpiniero]

You are forgetting that the R3 is essentially free. It is likely a heavily defective die that would be discarded if not offered.

There's still Threadripper and Epyc that use the quad core dies.

 

[amd6502]

My guess is that the Ryzen R3 lineup will be replaced by RR, while Ryzen v2 will be the 6 and 8 core chips.

I agree. Binning on Summit Ridge was driven with the void of Zen quadcores in mind. Now that RR fills that, PR will produce far fewer quadcores. Maybe a 4c/4t model or two, and one 4c/8t model.

There's still Threadripper and Epyc that use the quad core dies.

I'm thinking the demand for the 8 core threadrippers is limited. Someone sinking ~$400 for a TR board will likely not skimp and future proof the build with at least 12 cores. SR and the rare PR quadcore dies are better disposed of in the low end market.

 

[VirtualLarry]

While I'm not sure if I'll go with Intel or AMD for my next system when I get ready to build, I am rooting for AMD. It really depends on how well Linux is supported.

I've got to say, "Not well".

I built a "test mule" rig, around an AMD A8-9600 APU (Bristol Ridge). In an Asus Prime B350-E micro-ATX mobo. Which allows for overclocking of the BR APUs.

I installed Windows 10, works like a charm, everything works, great!

I installed Linux Mint 18.2 Cinnamon. No HDMI audio. No matter what I do.

I upgraded to Mint 18.3. Still no HDMI audio. Installed newest kernel, installed "daily ALSA" driver DKMS too, still no HDMI audio. Strangely, too, the analog audio doesn't show up in Linux at all either.

Booted Mint 18.3 Mate, no audio on the LiveUSB either.

Basically, it's screwed. No workable Linux audio for me. I have a monitor with speakers, I don't want to have to plug in a separate set of analog speakers every time I want to use a Linux PC.

The wierd part is, it's detected perfectly fine, and ACTS like it's actually working. Just ... no sound. Again, Windows 10 works fine. So it's gotta be Linux.

Unsure if it's the board, or the APU itself, that's incompatible with Linux.

And if Linux doesn't support BR (I can't install either the 15.2 Cats, or the AMD GPUPRO driver on Mint 18.3 either), then how is it going to support RR? I suspect that it wont.

Which is sad, these would make great Linux boxes, with an AMD APU, some DDR4, a mobo, and an SSD. Certainly cost- and performance-competitive with Intel's G4560.

Edit: This is all with the default open-source drivers in Mint 18.2 and 18.3. I was not able to get any of the proprietary drivers to install.

I did try an ATI DVI-to-HDMI adapter, off of the DVI port, and that worked in Windows 10, but not in Linux, for sound. It will do 4K though.

 

[whm1974]

I agree. Binning on Summit Ridge was driven with the void of Zen quadcores in mind. Now that RR fills that, PR will produce far fewer quadcores. Maybe a 4c/4t model or two, and one 4c/8t model.

If AMD can continue to improve their support for Linux with Ryzen and their GPUs, then I might switch to completely AMD from Intel and Nvidia.

 

[whm1974]

I've got to say, "Not well".

I built a "test mule" rig, around an AMD A8-9600 APU (Bristol Ridge). In an Asus Prime B350-E micro-ATX mobo. Which allows for overclocking of the BR APUs.

I installed Windows 10, works like a charm, everything works, great!

I installed Linux Mint 18.2 Cinnamon. No HDMI audio. No matter what I do.

I upgraded to Mint 18.3. Still no HDMI audio. Installed newest kernel, installed "daily ALSA" driver DKMS too, still no HDMI audio. Strangely, too, the analog audio doesn't show up in Linux at all either.

Booted Mint 18.3 Mate, no audio on the LiveUSB either.

Basically, it's screwed. No workable Linux audio for me. I have a monitor with speakers, I don't want to have to plug in a separate set of analog speakers every time I want to use a Linux PC.

The wierd part is, it's detected perfectly fine, and ACTS like it's actually working. Just ... no sound. Again, Windows 10 works fine. So it's gotta be Linux.

Unsure if it's the board, or the APU itself, that's incompatible with Linux.

And if Linux doesn't support BR (I can't install either the 15.2 Cats, or the AMD GPUPRO driver on Mint 18.3 either), then how is it going to support RR? I suspect that it wont.

Which is sad, these would make great Linux boxes, with an AMD APU, some DDR4, a mobo, and an SSD. Certainly cost- and performance-competitive with Intel's G4560.

Give Manjaro a shot and use the latest kernel that Manjaro supports. That might work.

 

[DrMrLordX]

ALSA? Seriously? Pulseaudio. And I don't even like Pulseaudio.

But ALSA ought to be deprecated by now except for the people that hate Pulseaudio.

 

[whm1974]

ALSA? Seriously? Pulseaudio. And I don't even like Pulseaudio.

But ALSA ought to be deprecated by now except for the people that hate Pulseaudio.

To be fair, PulseAudio did have really serious problems when it first came out. Like didn't even work half the time.